Many years ago, a group of friends and I came across one of the most spectacular sights I’ve ever seen. It was early morning in a school yard, and we stood in awe before a tree that was completely covered and surrounded by long fingers of ice that reached out in delicate and beautiful curves. The sight was enhanced by the early sunrise; the ice almost glowed in the orange light. One my friends looked in wonder at the tree and said: "God worked here last night".
I fully appreciate my friend’s sentiment. In my Christian years, it was hard to stand before such natural beauty and not ascribe it in some way to the workings of a higher power. But now, many years later, I realise how much my thinking has changed.
Was god involved in creating that ice tree, somehow? It was winter, and the temperature the night before had dropped below freezing. Under that specific tree, the school groundswoman had left the water sprayer on for a couple of hours during the night by accident. The conditions were just right for the spraying water to pattern itself as layers of ice onto the tree's leaves and branches. When you analyse the chain of cause and effect, when you connect the dots from 'tree with no ice' to 'tree with ice', there only seems to be natural processes involved.
Rainbows, waterfalls, sunsets, snowflakes. We know, without having to appeal to the supernatural, how these things arise in nature. What reason would there be to invoke a god, then?
Often, when eager Christians learn that I'm an atheist, one of the first things they often do - in some attempt to win me over - is to appeal to beautiful vistas in nature as evidence for god. They assert a dot called god, a supernatural link that somehow enables a 'tree with no ice' to turn into a 'tree with ice'. I'm often perplexed when I listen to them, left wondering if there is something that I'm constantly missing. How can I accept that a supernatural force is the cause of a rainbow when a person making that claim cannot demonstrate or tell me where in the process of 'rainbow formation' the supernatural is involved. Can you see why this seems like such a silly argument to me?
I also stood in awe in front of that beautiful ice tree. But for me natural beauty is enhanced by understanding how something like that really comes into being. The god answer only cheapens the experience because with the god answer I learn nothing new; it doesn't act as a springboard for further understanding. Instead, I prefer to take the time and effort to connect the dots. The answers I arrive at are far more satisfying that way; the universe far more interesting.
19 comments:
When you are at peace with your choice of belief, there is no need for you to be perplexed with those of us who have a belief different than yours. I'm not perplexed with your post here that attempts to "win me over" to your belief of no God. And you are correct in saying there is nothing new to learn about God; His truth stays the same, day after day it never changes ... but it is His truth that changes me constantly for the good ... now that I've learned to connect the dots. There was a time when I believed it was my job to get people like you to believe as people like myself believe. Now I understand His truth serves to change me into His likeness, it offers me life after death and to be at peace and not perplexed with people like you, no matter what you believe :)
Hi Shirley
In this post I'm not saying that I'm perplexed by the fact that Christians believe in a god or that they believe God has a creative role in natural world. I'm perplexed in their belief that their 'sunsets are evidence of God' argument is a persuasive argument, otherwise they wouldn't use it.
I'm also not suggesting at all that Christians are silly; I'm saying that this specific argument doesn't make any sense to me. I have very close Christian friends - who would probably beat me in a debate any day - who probably agree with me that this not a good argument, and they would not use it. But I find it a very common knee-jerk reaction that some Christians have when they learn I'm an atheist. They say something like: "how can you not believe in a God when you see a beautiful sunset?", or something like that . . .
Thanks for your feedback, Shirley.
I agree with Shirr, dude. If God doesn’t exist, why do you hate Him so much?? How can you hate someone who, in your eyes, doesn’t exist?? Strange. Satan is your God …yet, you prooo’bly doubt he exists anyway. What you don’t know is he controls your mind as he fills it with a lie --- Why don’t you follow us Home to Heaven Above if you‘re gonna croak as I am? How long do we have to enjoy this finite existence? 77ish, measly years? Compared to the length and breadth of eternity, 77ish years is like a dropOwater, a nanometer, in the whole, bloody, universe!! …quickly evaporating into nthn… Why don’t we have a BIG-ol, roxx-our-holy-soxx, party-hardy celebrating our resurrection for many eons? Heaven TOTALLY kicks-ass for eternity. PS see ‘P/C, unsanitized’ and feed-the-poor. Thank you proFUSEly, for the wick is running out on U.S. _thewarningsecondcoming.com_
If God doesn't exist, why do I hate him so much? Good question. First, I don't "hate" God, simply because I don't believe he exists. I guess what you are really trying to ask is why am I spending do much energy writing about something that I don't believe exists?
The reason isn't God at all. I'm not worried about God. Rather, I'm worried about his followers. People are very real, and there are fundamentalists of various shades and from different religions who believe they have the right to impose their beliefs on others, to dictate how everyone on this planet should live. When powerful religious bodies lobby to change laws in order to force others to live by their religious precepts (even when these precepts cause great harm), or when they lobby to limit the freedoms of others (especially the freedoms of woman), I get very worried. And so should you.
I don't care about God. But I do care about the incredible damage that religious fundamentalism can cause.
Kevin in reply to your 12/10/2012 21:14 post…
First, let us run to your real concern, which are people who abuse a belief in God to control others. It sounds like you are referring to the powerful religious bodies that oppress people, especially women, in the Islamic dominated countries?
How is it that people who do a poor job of describing, explaining and justifying the God they say they believe in make the real God not exist?
Hi BC500
How is it that people who do a poor job of describing, explaining and justifying the God they say they believe in make the real God not exist?
It doesn't make God not exist; it simply doesn't give me any reason to believe that such a god exists. If someone can't explain their position or justify their claim, then there is no way to know if the claim is true. It would be pretty reckless and irresponsible to just simply believe what they say. The prudent thing to do would be to withold belief until good reasons for belief are presented.
Kevin wrote:
And so should you
Dr Kold, I've reread my response to you and I want to apologise for this comment. I have no right to demand that you should think or believe in a certain way. I get passionate sometimes, and as a result my comments can be a tad abrasive :-) No offense was intended, and I hope none was taken.
I just read this today Kevin - on New Year's eve. An old dead spruce tree in my front yard was covered in hoarfrost yesterday morning, and it was beautiful. Like you, I understood the relationship between the moisture in the air, the temperature, the lims of the tree - and I have never felt the need of invoking the exisitence of any kind of deity to appreciate such things. I just discovered your blog, but plan to start reading it (and the comments) as time allows. Happy New Year Kevin!!!
Dear Kevin
I am 15 years old. I had to read your blog as part of my schooling. I confess that some of the things I read here has staggered me and made me think. But I cannot agree with you.
Relating to your question why the Bibles differ so much in the translation, I have an answer.
When the books were first written, which was a long time ago, people made copies of them to send out to other parts of the world. The people who received them, then made copies. What happened was that one, two or however many, people copied incorrectly. As more copies were made from the faulty copy, more mistakes crept in. Thus we have the mistakes that we have in the Bible today. However, when we say that the Bible is without fault and perfect, it does not mean that there are no grammar and copy mistakes. What we mean is that what God wanted to say was right and perfect and there is no fault with it. If you look in the different versions in the Bible, the verses may sound different but they all come down to the same meaning.
I also read in your blog that you say that you were a true Christian but then decided to turn away and you "lost" your faith. I beg to disagree. The Bible, if you believe it to be the final authority, says in Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That means that if you are a true believer that nothing can take God’s love from us. You are never able to loose your salvation. My observation is then, either you are a true Christian, but you have drifted away from God and his arms. That is possible, but you still don’t loose your salvation. If you are truly God’s child, then His Holy Spirit will push you to come back to His arms. He wants you as His child. He wants you back. But unfortunately, what it sounds like is that you grew up in a Christian family, went to church, believed with your head everything but, you were not saved. From what it sounds like also the church you went to was not Biblically sound.
Continuation Same writer 15 years
I do not want to come over judgmental or anything, but I would be a hypocrite if I read what you wrote and did not give a defense for my faith. Unfortunately there are a lot of churches and cults out there that are theologically not sound and are deceiving people. People like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then there are people out there that believe in signs and tongues and they are also false prophets. My concern is that you attended a church that was not sound, and therefore the dots did not add up.
Maybe you are right. Maybe after death there is nothing, you pass out of existence in nothingness. Maybe there is no God. If that is true then we of all people are most to be pitied. But what if it is true? What if there is a God? What if he is one day going to judge the whole earth and its inhabitants? I for one would not want to stand before him and say that I knew the truth but chose not to follow it.
At the start of the world, Adam sinned. His pride cause the fall of all mankind. Therefore God had to discipline them and cast them out of the Garden of Eden. As consequence as well, he cursed the earth. One thing you must realize about God is that, yes, he is a loving God and He cares for us, in a way that none of us deserves. However, what most people forget is that God is not just a loving God. He is a holy, and just God. Holy means that He is separated from sin, that He cannot, even in the smallest way, tolerate any sin. Therefore God has to Judge us and punish us for our sin. It says in the Bible that God originally created the Lake of Fire for Satan and his servants, but since mankind became corrupted that we were to share the same punishment because we are in rebellion against God. At the end of time, God will remove all of his servants from the earth and the seven years of tribulation will start. This will happen in the twinkling of an eye. The world will be thrown into chaos and at that time the AntiChrist will appear. He will offer peace and many will believe him. Unfortunately, for those who had heard the truth of Christ but had not believed or had been false about their faith, their last chance had left. It says in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12:
For this reason God will send a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.
The Scripture is clear that those who knew the truth will be forever lost. They will be unable to come to Christ. I know no greater horror than being left behind, knowing the truth and yet knowing that I am sentenced to eternal damnation in hell.
Same writer continuation, was too long too put in one comment 15 years old.
You said in your blog as well, that what is the use of giving thanks to God for food that you and other people provided for yourself. I do not claim to know all the answers, for I am but young. However I do know this. God gave you the intelligence that you use to be able to work for the money he gave you. He created the animals and the plants, and upholds them. He changes the seasons and provides the resources needed. We cannot see God for He is Spirit. Yes, icicles form from sprayers and cold temperatures, but no icicles would have formed if God had not controlled the weather and let it happen. Yes, medicine helps us to get better, but if God willed it otherwise, we could never be healthy, if God did not allow the medicine to work.
On evolution, I cannot make many comments for I do not study it. I do deny that things are evolving. But the way they evolve are important. Plants become adapted to a certain environment, thus “evolving”. Animals change “evolving” to become better adapted to a certain environment. What I did pick up from evolutionists, is the fact that it may not sound so, but they are trying to rule out the possibility that there is a creator, to rule out the fact that there is a creator. They want there to be no God, so that they would be free to do what they want to do. Again, I don’t know the inner workings of evolution, but I do know this. God is there even though we can’t see him.
God had a plan from the beginning of time. He allowed Stan to tempt Eve and He let them fall. God planned to send Jesus Christ into the world, so that His glory may magnified. Here is a pure simple truth; God is most concerned for His own glory. It sounds selfish and human, but you must remember God s Holy. There is only one thing in the whole world that God cannot do and tat is to sin. If God sinned, He would not be God any more. With our feeble minds we cannot comprehend or even begin to understand Him. All we can do is place our trust and faith on Him, even if we can’t see Him, and hope in the truth of what we believe.
All that I have written here won’t change your mind the slightest bit if God does not want it to happen. I know for a fact that faith defies all logic and all science. If you try to analyze it, it makes no sense. The only thing that makes sense is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. If you truly believe that God will change your heart, and reveal to you the fallacy of your ways. All mankind is steeped in sin, stubborn and refusing the only way to God. God can change your life and it is a beautiful thing to behold.
A brilliant man once said:
Indeed the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ and Him crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.
That man was Paul the Apostle.
I went camping once when younger and we found it hilarious - even though we were all pretty much atheist - to rile the most scientific minded of our bunch by referring to the beauty of sunsets or the stars as proof of God. It was funny because (I guess he would probably be diagnosed as Aspergers today) he had no tolerance for wooliness in his thinking. God, we were assholes.
But overall a great camp.
Reply Luis
I read your points. I am also afraid I cannot agree with you. I will try to be gentle but please bear with me if I sound condeming.
"That's just the same as saying that what's selfish and human is holy."
It is not the same. Our minds are limited to the fact that we cannot understand God perfectly because our minds are tainted by sin. We look at God through our own style of glasses and make decisions which then basically means that we say, "I am God. I know better."
We say, He is unfair to judge based on one man's sin. He is unloving because He sends people to hell. He is unjust because He does not condone what is good and right in our eyes. He is like any other God. and so forth.... I have a question for you, Luis. And I want you to think very carefully.
Consider your life as it is now. Do you lie? Do you get angry? Do you become greedy? Do you covet what other people have? If so... how would you have done any better than Adam did at the start of the world? Looking back we say, "Oh, but I wouldn't have done THAT!"
What you forget is that you do wrong things. And looking back at your mistakes I might say, "Oh, but I wouldn't have done THAT!" when I probably make the same mistakes every day.
I do not have all the answers. God himself wrote to the Israelites
"The secret things belong to the Lord"
And that is as true today as it was back then. All of the other religions that I know of state this... Do good and maybe your good will out way your bad and you will go to paradise.
True Christianity is the total opposite. God says that even our good works are like filthy rags. Tossed in the wind. The only way we can be clean before him is through a sacrifice. And the only pure and unblemished sacrifice for our sins was Jesus Christ. No one else would suffice. What does that say of God's love for us in that while we were yet sinners, He sent is only beloved Son to die on a cross, the most humiliating death possible, for our sins. Christ was flogged, nailed to a cross of wood. He died and rose again the third day, and offer me and every person out there the hope of being a child of God.
I will agree with you that it is hard to obey God. Hard to follow in Jesus' footsteps. But the joy of listening to what Christ says, the joy of having a personal relationship with God, the peace of knowing that I am never alone no matter the trouble, is worth missing out on what this world has to offer.
I didn't mean to sound doubting. I was trying to get to a point and I don't think I did very well.
In the end like I said before:
All that I have written here won’t change your mind the slightest bit if God does not want it to happen. I know for a fact that faith defies all logic and all science. If you try to analyze it, it makes no sense. The only thing that makes sense is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. If you truly believe that God will change your heart, and reveal to you the fallacy of your ways. All mankind is steeped in sin, stubborn and refusing the only way to God. God can change your life and it is a beautiful thing to behold.It's your choice how you will live your life. But For me... I will serve Christ till the day I die.
Luis
I do not denigrate life. I don't hate life. While I am here, my goal is to live to God's glory. My life is enhanced. So whatever I do, I do to the fullest of my capability.
I didn't mean that God doesn't want you. He loves you and wants to come to Him. A very difficult thing to understand is election. I don't fully understand it, and your arguments make life very difficult.
And God doesn't order evil things to happen, rape, murder and those things. Not now. In Israel's day He ordered the Canaanites destruction, first of all because they were a cursed people. Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan, therefore cursing the nations that came from him. Secondly God did it to protect the line of His Seed, so that the Canaanites would not intermarry. That is why He was always so angry when they disobeyed, intermarrying, and not driving the people out. He punished them like a father punishes his son, to turn them back to Him.
God doesn't tolerate sin. He gives us over to what our hearts desire. What you also forget is that it is not just God and His angels out there. Satan is also very real and he and his demons are actively at work in this world. God is allowing the evil in the world even after Christ's death so that the full amount of gentiles can come to him. Also, There are some prophecies need to be fulfilled. 70 prophetic weeks were prophesied for Israel. Only 69 have passed. The last week is the seven years of tribulation which God will use to bring His chosen people back finally and forever to Him. Remember it is not a cosmic battle between good and evil. It is Satan trying to be God and God is simply fulfilling the plan he had before he even created the earth.
Ultimately what I wanted to say is my best argument, my finest words, my wisest discussions, cannot change your heart. The Bible is my foundation and if you don't accept the Bible as the final authority, then it won't matter what I say. In the end, I can't change your mind or your heart, Only God and His Word can do that, but God leaves you with the choice. On the moment you don't want to believe, don't want God in your life. So He simply allows you to live with your decision and to bear the consequences of your actions.What pains me is that trying to reason with you, I try to bring you to Christ in my own power and I cannot do that.
It's your choice, your life, and your consequences, be they good or bad in the end.
DENYING THE WORDS OF GOD THE FATHER!
When men deny the truth found in the Scriptures; they are denying the words of God the Father. When men deny the truth spoken by Jesus; they are denying the words of God the Father. When men deny the doctrine of the apostles; they are denying the words of God the Father.
All Scripture is the word of God the Father.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,(NKJV)
All that Jesus spoke was from God the Father.
John 12:49-50 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."(NKJV)
All of the apostles doctrine was from God the Father. Why was that? Because Jesus taught the apostles and all of the words of Jesus were from God the Father.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.(NKJV)
John 16:13-14 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
All the teaching from the Holy Spirit came from Jesus and all the words of Jesus came from God the Father.
There are no Scriptures that declare that church creed books, (catechisms) or any other extra-Biblical writings are that of God the Father. Remember; all Scripture is inspired by God. Creed books are not Scripture. No extra-Biblical writing is Scripture.
HOW DO MEN DENY THE WORDS OF GOD THE FATHER?
1. When men claim there is more than one God; they are denying the words of God the Father.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(NKJV)
2. When men declare that Jesus did not say water baptism precedes salvation; they are denying the words of God the Father.
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved...(NKJV)
3. When men say that Christians cannot fall from grace; they denying the words of God the Father.
Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.(NKJV)
All Scripture is inspired by God the Father.
YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY CHRISTIAN BLOG: You can can find it by a google search, steve finnell a christian view.
The religion of Hill Evidencism is only based on evidence and logic: http://hill-evidencism.blogspot.com/.
Perhaps you should extend your dots to the time when God made summer and winter. The Psalmist says:
"Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter." (Psalm 74:17).
Wow! Think of that. If it hadn't been winter and below freezing, the woman could have left the sprayer on until the cows come home and nothing, zilch, nada would have happened. As you can see, it wasn't the woman who accidentally left the spray on that made the beauty you saw.
This reminds me of what Paul says in Romans.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:18-22)
This is a lovely post. I too am a former christian, and I couldn't have put it better. Please continue to write! Hopefully more people will be encouraged to find out how something really comes to be. Because it is far more beautiful. All the best :)
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