Tuesday, April 22, 2008

When mystery is used as a bridge

On a earlier blog post, a reader made the following comment in response to my claim that God’s existence is not obvious:

Open your eyes, look around you. Look at your wife, look at a South African sunset, look at a baby being born, look at the stars! It takes MUCH more faith, in my opinion, to believe that there is NO God!

This argument sounds extremely convincing, but after much thinking I’ve realised – and I could be wrong here – a possible problem with this kind of reasoning. It is possible that God is the cause of all phenomena in nature, but the problem is that we have no idea of HOW God makes all these things possible. God is the cause and the link, many claim, but they fail to provide evidence for this link.

Think of the following equation:

A=B=C

C (a sunset, the universe, etc) is a result of A (God), but no clear idea is given of the kind of mechanism that links A and C together. In other words, B (the how) is unknown. I would think that, until B is provided, a theist can’t confirm that God is responsible for elements in nature, let alone claim that these are evidence of his existence.

This also applies to claims of miraculous healing, such as disappearing tumours, for example. Although most miracle claims are anecdotal, there are a few individuals who maintain that they have some sort of evidence from X-rays and medical scans.

You see, many attribute miracle healings to the supernatural, but they provide no idea of how the supernatural could have caused the healing, Again, the link (i.e., the B) is missing. In order for a theist to convince me that God healed them, not only do they have convincingly show that something unexplainable did indeed happen, but more importantly they have to show a clear causal link between the miracle experience and the God of the Bible. Without this link, I can’t be convinced that a healing, or any other phenomenon, was or is a result of the supernatural. In other words, although I won’t dispute the fact that miracle healings can happen, I doubt the claimed cause of these experiences.



Getting back to the blog comment above: we already have perfectly natural explanations for the phenomena the reader listed. Yes, a South African sunset is extremely beautiful, but I know this isn’t a result of a divine creator, but of sunlight reflecting off dust particles; God didn’t create a newly born baby, its parents did; and we know the stars came into being as a result of gravity and nuclear fusion. We have perfectly understandable natural explanations for all the phenomena in the above comment; we already have a fair understanding of how A,B and C all link together.

And what of the few phenomena in nature where we might not have a clear natural explanation either? Well, as an atheist, I’m very content to say “I don’t know”, until further evidence is in.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

Reason is a very useful thing, but it has its limits.

I must say too, that when I was in high school, I was wrestling with the question of whether God existed or not. Then one day I looked outside from the classroom and saw Table Mountain in its splendour with a white cloud over it and I was very moved. I somehow got convinced that God existed.

The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
- Psalm 19:1

CyberKitten said...

trevor said: Reason is a very useful thing, but it has its limits.

Indeed. I suspect it does - but that's no excuse to fill the gaps with un-reason.

Ryan said...

Reason may, may have its limits (in a limited sense) but the scientific method does not.

Any question that we can formulate can be addressed by the scientific method. To paraphrase Peter Atkins:

"There are no important questions that begin with 'Why?' The only important questions begin with 'How?' And science can deconstruct all of those Why questions - either into their How components, or show that they are wholly invented, pointless questions."

Questions like 'Why are we here?' that imply purpose are inventions of human grammar, and presuppose purpose without first providing evidence that there should be a purpose in the first place.

Anonymous said...

I always find it amazing that those who say they don't believe in "God" spend so much time and energy and their life debating and talking about Him if He doesn't exist. I see no logic in that at all, lol

Anonymous said...

But what caused gravity and nuclear fusion? Please explain how everything came from nothing. How is it that everything has always existed, and if it didn't how did it begin to exist? Yes, you can explain phenomena, but what put the phenomena into motion in the very first place?

Ryan said...

I'm prepared to admit: I don't know. Nor does anyone. And to claim a connection between unknown causes or mechanisms of natural phenomenon, and supernatural instigator...

Well, it's just silly.

Kevin said...

Yes, you can explain phenomena, but what put the phenomena into motion in the very first place?

My answer is: "I don't know". But I would go as far as saying that you don't know either. Yes, you believe that there is a creator, but this is different from knowing that there is a creator. When it comes to the question of where the universe came from, I think both the atheist and theist are in the same boat: we simply don't know for sure. I'm content to proclaim my ignorance, rather than positing the indefensible belief of a supernatural cause.

Kevin said...

Picards babe said...
I always find it amazing that those who say they don't believe in "God" spend so much time and energy and their life debating and talking about Him if He doesn't exist.

Excellent question! Lui covered this quite well, but you can also find my answer here.

Anonymous said...

My answer is: "I don't know". But I would go as far as saying that you don't know either. Yes, you believe that there is a creator, but this is different from knowing that there is a creator.

How can we not know when the creator God lives in us? He does not live in you, so yes, you do not know, but He lives in those who trust in Him for their salvation. (This is what faith is, by the way.)

Anonymous said...

This is a wonderful blog, which I have been reading for quite some time now.

When people in ancient days observed a new born baby being born, they probably said "god did it" because they did not have the necessary knowledge and scientific grounding. Now, we do. We understand that a baby forms by cellular differentiation, with genes being silenced or expressed by various chemicals and proteins.

Science takes time. Religious people angle for answers NOW - they rarely take time to investigate. Anytime they run into something they can't explain, they often throw up their hands and say "God did it". That is the easy way out. Scientists will look at complex problems and try to find an answer. It takes time, it takes effort. We scientists are not arrogant to claim we have all the answers - but at least we try. Religion on the other hand, is arrogant enough to claim it knows everything.

Religious people love say that science doesn't have all the answers - and that is true. However, a lack of an answer is better than a made up answer.

Unknown said...

I stumbled across this blog today, and I am very excited to have found it! As an ex-Christian, I struggle with defining my logic so I can explain my change in belief more clearly.

In response to trevor's comment:

How can we not know when the creator God lives in us? He does not live in you, so yes, you do not know, but He lives in those who trust in Him for their salvation. (This is what faith is, by the way.)

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
-Friedrich Nietszche

Anonymous said...

There seem to be several people who are reading this blog who claim to be ex-Christians. There also seems to be a definition of the term "faith" that is accepted which does not agree with the Bible's definition of faith.

If the ex-Christians on this blog really were Christians, then they would know what faith is. After all "It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith."

Can anyone tell me what they think faith is?

CyberKitten said...

trevor asked: Can anyone tell me what they think faith is?

Belief without knowledge or 'beyond' knowledge.

Kevin said...

Trevor wrote
Can anyone tell me what they think faith is?

Excellent question! I think – and this is my uneducated opinion – that Christian faith consists of two aspects. First is the not-seeing-is-believing aspect of faith, that one should have belief in something without the associated evidence (as the writer seems to allude in Hebrews 11:1). Second is the relational aspect of faith that focuses on the person of Jesus. In other words, not only is faith believing in things that are difficult to support rationally (such as the supernatural, virgin births, parting seas, and other such claims), but it also means putting your trust (or faith) in the personhood of Jesus, in his gift of salvation. Ex-Christians and atheists tend to focus the first aspect, while Christians understandably emphasize the second.

As a Christian, I naturally held onto the relational aspect of faith more than anything else. I followed what I thought was Jesus, I held onto his teachings, and I spoke with him and – at times – I thought he spoke to me. But later I started to battle with the first aspect of faith: I suddenly came to a point where I could not honestly believe in things without the associated evidence. With the collapse of the first aspect of faith, I realized that I couldn’t sustain or uphold the second, relational part. After all, how could I have a relationship with someone whose existence I wasn’t sure of.

Hope this answers your question.

gip-k said...

Well, I don't think, in the case of Christian miracle stories, that the link "B" which you claim to be weak/missing is there. You had the same point expressed in the other 2 of the 4 posts that you linked me to.

For example, isn't it probable to assume in the case of an untreatable, persistent medical condition, that if someone prays specifically in the name of Jesus Christ, and an unexplained/supernatural healing occurs within a reasonable time frame after the prayer, that you can attribute this to the fact that they prayed?

Or even that aside, what about if in the case, a bone was broken- something that can reasonably heal on its on, but is not known to be healed in seconds or minutes for example- was suddenly healed directly following prayer? Wouldn't it be right to attribute this to God or Jesus? We can't say it just "happened" because of something else, because these people were praying to a specific entity/person. Of course, someone could claim "Yeah, it was just aliens or some other unseen force" but that's not logical, is it?

I use these two as examples, because you're not going to fall into the problem of "before this, after this, therefore this" or however the saying goes which expresses that just because two things happen simultaneously does not mean that one caused the other.

For example, I do not consider it to be "healing" if someone is prayed for a cold or flu for example, and the sickness runs its course. Yes, flus can be fatal, but there's no way to prove that the person didn't die because of the prayer. It's also not a healing if prayer and medicine are combined, even if the results are unusually positive- since there's no way to tell if the results would've been the same with or without the prayer.

Of course, you can still argue that not all the Bible is true even if the God of the Bible exists- it's all up to you. But I think deciding whether or not a specific god is responsible for a miracle would be pretty easy in the right circumstances.

Kevin said...

Hi gip-k

Very good comments

For example, isn't it probable to assume in the case of an untreatable, persistent medical condition, that if someone prays specifically in the name of Jesus Christ, and an unexplained/supernatural healing occurs within a reasonable time frame after the prayer, that you can attribute this to the fact that they prayed?

Is there evidence that this in fact happened? We first have to establish that person was actually healed from an untreatable disease before we talk about causes, and this can easily be done through X-rays, medical reports, etc. If this can’t be proved, then this example is simply anecdotal in nature.

But even if it were proved that a person was healed from something untreatable, I still would not consider the God hypothesis. Simply because – and I humbly disagree with you here - that this is an example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. I say this because not all prayers for healing are answered - there are many that go unanswered. In other words, there is no clear, statistical pattern that I’m aware of that shows that miraculous healings are specifically linked to prayer, so we are not yet justified to claim that prayer is the cause, even if it seems to be the case in a few examples. It could be a third, unknown, and unrelated factor that causes such healings.

And a bigger problem is the fact that there are many claims of miraculous healings throughout history from other religions and faiths. Even if we managed to link prayer to healing, how would one demonstrate that the God of the Bible is responsible?

It would be intriguing though if high proportion of prayers for miraculous healing were answered, and that the prayers by Christians were the only ones that worked. Then those claiming miraculous healing could then begin to build a case!